And here we go...the same old arguments. Damn, Pluto...aren't you sick of this yet?

Ah, yes. Here we are, right on schedule. I received a perfect example of the leaps in logic and judgement related to this topic, folks... 

It's like clockwork, yo. The same comments, put forth in the same ways... 

And since I have dealt with this so many times in the past, here is the refutation, as well. 

Questioning made this comment (regarding the previous post: The Secret Vs. Evolutionary Astrology): 

"Neptune rules, not only illusion and denial, but also faith. You may say that the Age of Pisces, the Age of Faith is behind us, but faith, Neptune in it highest expression is never out-of-date, and never a mistake. For faith is what keeps the meek, the dispossessed, the downtrodden going. (read "Man's Search For Meaning" by Viktor Frankl and you'll get what I'm trying to say) Sooner or later, everyone needs it. I see life as a process which involves ALL the planets, interacting more or less in each of our lives; each representing a valuable psychological component of what it means to be human.Who can say what is delusion and what is tremendous faith? Who is the final judge in determining what is reality? Perhaps, for now, you choose to believe in a reality where faith is delusion, fantasy. Perhaps this is why you cannot manifest what you desire. Because you don't believe you can; because at the heart of your being, you believe in scarcity, lack, or unworthiness. I'm just suggesting this because you seem so negative about the possibility of manifesting one's dreams. It can happen, Willow. Why it works for some and not others, one can only imagine. But perhaps experiencing enough disappointments in this area is just what a person needs to clarify what it is he really wants. When what you say you want is what your soul actually wants, I think nothing can prevent its manifestation." 

I understand what Neptune rules, Questioning. But what I also understand is that at the tail-end of any era, there are certain forms that reach a point of stagnation. This is what we are experiencing right now. The Age of Pisces is, for all intents and purposes, over, and the Age of Aquarius is beginning. We need to evolve Neptune's expression... 

Does that mean faith is no longer necessary? Of course not. I didn't say anything remotely like that. And here is your first leap in logic. 

Questioning says: "Perhaps, for now, you choose to believe in a reality where faith is delusion, fantasy." 

I didn't say anything about faith being delusion or fantasy. What I said was that a delusional world view in which nothing "bad" ever happens (or if it does, it's the individual's problem for "creating it") was not a progressive or responsible thing to which to prescribe. 

Insisting upon living with Neptunian blinders in a "different dimension" from the rest of the planet is not what the situation requires at the moment. 

Yes, I agree, faith is what sustains most of us as human beings. But faith does not have to involve mass delusion. 

Neptune relates to our spiritual guidance, our connection with the divine, yes. It doesn't have to relate to avoidance of anything that doesn't fit its preferred understanding of life. It doesn't have to involve refusing to look at material reality, at what is going on on the planet. Those are some of its expressions at tail-end Pisces, and these expressions must be brought to awareness in order to have a successful transition to Aquarius. Otherwise, we carry the problems of the past forward...blind to them. 

Let me be clear! Escapism, transcendence, detaching from the problems of the planet - they all have their place. At times. And in the proper doses. But again, it's about evolving the expression and integrating all parts of the human experience/birth chart - not living in denial of the parts that don't suit us. 

I'm not refuting faith here. What I'm refuting is the application of the ideology found in The Secret, and the assumptions/leaps in logic that people seem to make in that application. 

Questioning says: 

"Perhaps this is why you cannot manifest what you desire. Because you don't believe you can; because at the heart of your being, you believe in scarcity, lack, or unworthiness." 

Second leap in logic. Who said I can't manifest what I desire? Who says I haven't or that I don't? Pretty presumptuous of you, considering you know little to nothing about me or my life. But this is the same thing many people come out with when anyone attempts to turn any kind of critical analysis or personal discernment on this subject. 

I'm only saying what I'm saying because it "didn't work for me," right? Not because...oh, I don't know...I fundamentally disagree with the use of the ideology or anything. 

Honestly, it's textbook...word-for-word. I could substitute any number of people promoting The Secret (or any other New Age concept) into this conversation with the same result. 

Questioning says: 

"I'm just suggesting this because you seem so negative about the possibility of manifesting one's dreams." 

Third leap in logic - I didn't say anything about manifesting one's dreams. I asked, why are people desiring the things they desire in 2008 North America (or anywhere)? And is the fulfillment of all those desires justified? Are instant manifestation and instant gratification things we should be promoting in a consumer capitalist society? Are personal desires aligned with what's actually needed? 

But here's more establishment New Age stuff here. The labeling of anyone with a differing view as "negative." This is done in a million-and-one forms, as well. It often involves dropping references to books/movies/lecturers/gurus/whatever as a sly form of proselytizing...so we can all get to and understand the "wavelength" of the person in question. (So thanks for including that for illustration.) 

I don't need your books, your lectures, your gurus, your ideology. I don't need spiritual materialism. Again, this is an example of what I've talked about in the past. If one insists on integrating only the "positive" into their lives (which is often promoted in New Age circles), he or she sees "negativity" everywhere. It's the big, bad Bogeyman - all those negative people out there who just can't seem to accept the truth. 

In reality, it's a balancing point. Negative seeks to balance positive and vice versa. 

Isn't this the same thing that happens with the organized religions? Anyone with a differing faith or viewpoint is just not "there yet." Just hasn't accepted the truth? And they're to be slightly pitied that they can't use the concepts in their own lives. 

Questioning says: 

"Who can say what is delusion and what is tremendous faith? Who is the final judge in determining what is reality?" 

Who can say? I can. We can. Each individual can. Who is the final judge? I am. We are. We all have the responsibility to determine that for ourselves, rather than passing it off to some organization or ideology or mass groupthink. 

And here is the balancing point for excesses of Neptune/Pisces - Virgo! Personal discernment, logic, critical analysis, earth-based realities, determining what is acceptable/unacceptable and appropriate/inappropriate in our own lives... 

As long as we keep it all "relative," George Bush could be committing acts of "tremendous faith" using depleted uranium munitions on Iraquis and Afghanis. He believes he is being guided by God to kill all those people and irradiate the planet. 

Well, I guess he is! That's his "reality," right? Who am I to say what is reality and what is delusion? Uhhhh....yeah. (It's my responsibility as a human being to determine that for myself, incidentally.) 

As long as we are connected biologically to life on this planet, what other people do with their "realities" affects our "realities." There is no separation. Nuclear warfare is a perfect illustration of this. Very few would remain unaffected. The current irradiation of the planet from illegal use of depleted uranium has affected and will affect millions. So to pretend we can exist outside these realities...well, it's just wishful-thinking. 

And as I've said, living in denial allows this stuff to continue in ever-more horrendous ways. 

Now, y'all might think I'm going a little overboard here...but in reality, I'm not. Because there are so many people with this perspective, to varying degrees...a perspective that seems to be promoted in the current establishment New Age. This is just the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg.